In a very special feature, Michigan’s Marcus Ray and Ohio State’s Dee Miller break down the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry, talk about how they became friends, the intensity of the ‘97 contest and what they plan to do for this week’s game (Run time is 21:03; transcription below the jump).
Lost Lettermen: This is Jim Weber from LostLettermen.com and I’m joined by Ohio State’s Dee Miller and Michigan’s Marcus Ray. Thanks for joining us guys.
I wanted to start off with you Marcus, could you talk about the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry and what it means to you being a guy from Columbus that jumped ship to go to Michigan?
Marcus Ray: The Ohio State-Michigan rivalry is one game that I paid attention to since I was about six years old. I didn’t really have a choice since I was from Columbus and I feel in love with Michigan, obviously, around 1981-82 and I followed them.
The thing that captured me was the helmets and I always took a lot of flack for loving Michigan and I stated in about 1983 I said I was going to be a Wolverine. So I dedicated my life academically and athletically to living that dream.
It meant the world to me to be a part of that great rivalry. I miss playing. I’m really upset that Michigan hasn’t been winning in the latter years in this great rivalry but that’s how it’s been. If you just check the decades, look back at the records. There are times when Ohio State is going to win a few and Michigan is going to win a few. I’ve never seen five or six straight or eight out of nine. That’s just ridiculous.
But being a part of that rivalry definitely changed my life. I met great friends like Dee Miller and we still talk about it to this very day.
LL: Dee, could you talk about what it’s like being a central Ohio guy all your life and being a true Buckeye?
Dee Miller: Growing up in Springfield, which is 45 minutes west of Columbus, I think if you’re growing up playing football and you have visions … you know it’s crazy, a lot of us have visions of making it to the NFL and not really knowing what college we want to go to catapult that dream but I always paid attention to the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry. I mean just growing up, my family and different things were always involved with that game.
Growing up I didn’t know what school I wanted to go to. I just thought about getting recruited by Ohio State and Tennessee and I just felt that Ohio State would be best for me after my football career.
But just being a part of that rivalry, I was on the not-so-good side of this rivalry, going 2-3. But it’s just a great tradition to be a part of. You look at all the different players that played and made plays during this rivalry and I’m just blessed to have my name associated with this rivalry the way that it is.
LL: Dee, could you ever imagine going to Michigan if you had gotten a scholarship offer there and not Ohio State or was that just out of the question?
DM: I mean, actually I did get a scholarship offer to Michigan. Gary Moeller did a great job of getting a lot of top Ohio players out of Ohio to go to Michigan. The only thing is I wanted to play wide receiver and he wanted me to play defensive back. I knew I didn’t want to play defensive back in college, so that kind of wiped them out of my choices (laughs)
LL: So Marcus, how long have you guys known each other? Did you become friends while you were at Michigan and he was at Ohio State or did you know each other even before that?
MR: I met Dee Miller at a Michigan open house; I believe it was August 1, 1993. And it’s funny he’s telling you a story about Michigan wanting him to play defensive back because the open house was for top athletes Michigan was looking at; guys they had offered. I mean Orlando Pace was there, Dee Miller was there, I was there. So it was a pretty exclusive event and it was funny because we were sitting in the defensive back room together with Billy Harris, the former defensive back coach and I just saw the look on Dee’s face. I mean he had the hurt face. He was sitting there like “I can’t believe they about to tell me I’m playing safety.” So we started laughing (both players laughing).
So that’s how he and I started talking because they left us in the room alone and so we talked. He told me he was from Springfield and he played wideout. And he said, “Man, forget this. I’m not going to Michigan.” And I was thinking to myself, “That’s wonderful. That’s one less guy I have to deal with in recruiting.” (laughs)
It was funny but Dee and I have been friends since that day and actually I’m closer with Dee than I am with my own guys that I played with and I definitely … our friendship really, really made me want to become a Buckeye. It had nothing to do with Ohio State. It was just the fact I bonded with guys like him and some other players. But through recruiting I would see Dee Miller at Ohio State games and we always had this rivalry going. He had a big-time quarterback that was putting up numbers, throwing him the ball every play.
So we all would bring in our tapes up there during recruiting and his quarterback, Chris Wallace—he ended up going to Toledo—but he and I had this little thing going on and we were always arguing about whose team was better and who was the best player in Ohio and we all were in the same boat because we were all going to big time schools.
So our friendship just carried over from there and when I saw Dee Miller at a banquet, I believe it was the Super 32 banquet, I mean he was cleaner than the board of health. (Miller laughs) This brother had on a suit that I don’t know where he got it from. He had on a suit that he was dressed to kill. I’m sitting there with a blazer on and a silk shirt. I’m all embarrassed. But Dee was clean; I could tell that he was well-raised. I met his parents and the story goes on; we played in the big 33, the North-South game.
Ever since then I fell in love with Dee Miller. And so our friendship has been wonderful over the last 16 years.
LL: Could you talk about what it was like from 1995-1998? Marcus you went 3-1 against Dee and obviously everyone remember the ’97 game and all the trash talk that was going on. What was it like the week leading up to that game and all the barbs that was going back and forth between Michigan’s secondary and Ohio State’s receivers?
MR: Here’s the deal. In the Big Ten we all played the same teams. So every time Ohio State played someone before us or we played someone before them, we would always watch each other. So I knew that Ohio State was always going to be ready to play but we always kind of had their playbook figured out. But the thing is I would always give Dee Miller a call and taunt him and talk trash and say “You better tell Pep not to run the ball. I’ma break your neck when you run across the middle.” Just friendly rivalry talk and I would call him and I told him I said Charles was going to beat Terry Glenn up; he’s going to shut him down. So we would always go back and forth like that.
Then we would play the game, then I would come home and actually go to Ohio State’s campus with my Michigan stuff on and sit in their room and hang out with them at the towers. Then one year we had a little Thanksgiving interviews downtown. Dee Miller and I have been doing interviews for a long time, but here’s the thing that really, really got to me.
It was ’95 and I had started six games as a redshirt freshmen. I got benched and I looked in the game and Dee Miller is lining up as a redshirt freshmen in the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry. I’m sitting there mad because I’m not starting and not getting any playing time and he winks at me and then they had the nerve to throw him the ball. I was so mad, so mad.
But as far as the trash talk, I mean, there was some heated, heated rivalries. That’s the only day of the year we don’t like each other.
DM: That game our redshirt freshman year … A lot of people don’t realize how close Marcus and I really are because he was on the sideline and I got in and of course he couldn’t root for me but I could tell he was like happy for me like “I can’t believe Dee is actually in the game.” (both laugh) And at the time it really meant something.
But yeah, in ’97 I think a lot of the trash talk was basically, had (David) Boston and Woodson and I think Dave had mentioned something about Woodson is not no Shawn Springs. You try to back away from that type of comments, you know billboard material. But it got us there … Marcus and I would talk every week leading into that game, every year that we played. Coop would always say, “What is your boy Marcus Ray saying?” And I’d say, “Marcus is saying we’re going to run those same hooks and they going to be ready for us, sitting on them.” (both laugh)
I’ve never really tried to get into the trash talking but of course you know during that week you had other players that got involved in that and I always just tried to let my play back up my talking.
LL: Marcus, what was your reaction when you heard David Boston say that Charles Woodson was maybe overrated? Were you stoking his fire, saying ‘Hey, I don’t think you’re any good.’? What were you saying?
MR: I’ll tell you what. I was very upset. And the thing was it actually started when he said—after they beat Indiana—he said, “We should beat Michigan by two or three touchdowns if our offense is clicking.” So then Charles turned around the net day and said, “Well we should win by two or three touchdowns if our offense is clicking.”
And then it was funny because I was watching on YouTube and I never really understood how deep the trash talking was between Charles and Dave in the media. So when I saw Dave say, “Yeah he got on TV a few weeks ago and he said he’s the best player in the country.” He said “I’ve played against better players in practice and he’s no Shawn Springs.” Now immediately Herbstreit was the one who picked up the phone, called me, told me because he knew I was going to respond and then Charles got angry and he did the press conference. Then Charles started saying “Well since he put my name in his mouth, then I’m going to have to go see him like I did in ’95 with Terry Glenn.”
So the whole thing was getting out of control but if was good for football. I mean it was bad that they did that but the thing was if Dave’s comments had to get us ready to play then we probably shouldn’t have been playing anyway. There’s enough incentive to want to win that game without the trash talk but I think that gave us an edge mentally because Michigan was winning. But trash talking was just part of the rivalry with those cast of characters in the ‘90s.
There were plays when every time somebody lined up I know I had something to say to their whole sideline, I was really taunting them. Then in ’98, when they beat us I didn’t want to look at the sideline and Dee Miller and all them boys were yelling my name trying to get me to look over there but I think it was part of the rivalry. I think it was just part of it because we were all friends.
People don’t realize that it’s the fans that don’t like each other but the players love each other. I’m crazy about Dee Miller. So it was one of those things that we were blessed to be friends and then play against each other, but the trash talk was inevitable.
And Ohio State may have won if they kept throwing the ball to Dee Miller to be honest if you watch that tape. Dave wasn’t the one we needed to worry about, he was dropping balls. Dee was getting first downs. So I just think the trash talk made it all more fun.
LL: Can you talk about the intensity when you guys played each other, particularly the ’97 game? You have Boston and Woodson punching each other in the face, David Boston is jogging backwards into the endzone, Marcus you had that hit where you flipped David Boston upside down and you seemed to be trash talking him after. It just seemed insane what the intensity was?
MR: Well yeah. It really started because of all the comments. Now I didn’t really see Charles fighting. I saw the replay and I think Dave got the best of Charles and I think the emotions were flying and there was so much at stake. Tempers were flaring. Guys were talking, woofing. It was a good clean game but it was just … I think it was one of the better Michigan-Ohio State games just because how competitive it was, how fiery it was.
Now when Dave scored on Charles, Dave should’ve dropped the ball anyways. Charles slipped and got all turned around and Dave ran a pretty good route on him and then he backed into the endzone.
See, people would think that that’s classless but in a sense … I don’t think Dave is a bad dude, he was caught up in the moment. That’s how much, that’s how far and deep it ran in our blood to dislike and how much competitive our nature was. It was I don’t like you, I hate you. And so now I’m going to put it on you.
It’s funny because when he scores, Charles tried to slap the ball out of his hands and I said, “Don’t worry Charles, I’ma knock him out.” And then John Limpkin look at me on the field for the extra point and says, “I’ma knock you out.” And I said, “OK John.” So then that’s when we split up and ran off the field. And Dave came across the middle and I just went up under him and stood over the top of him like Ali did Sonny Liston. That’s really where I got the idea from and stood over him. I said “Don’t ever talk trash in my house again.” I ran to the sideline and I looked to coach Kennedy, their strength coach, and I said, “Come get this girl off the field.”
And then Coach Kennedy got upset and he was kind of cursing me out (Miller laughs). But that’s how, people don’t know and I talk about that in my book Jim, but that’s how deep the competition and the fire was in that game.
LL: That’s insane. Dee, could you talk a little bit about, you lost in ’95, ’96, ’97 and then to be able to come back in ’98 and beat Marcus and, as he said, everyone was on the sidelines, what that was like for you to finally win?
DM: Well, again, I never really liked to talk trash directly to Marcus. There was a few times where, when he hit Dave and he came over to me like “I told ya I was going to give it to your boy.” I’m like, “Man go on.” There were some times where I would try to crack back on Marcus when the game was over, I’m still blocking real hard and he’s like “Dang, Dee man, relax.” And I’m like, “Man, no, we just lost again.”
But I guess going into your senior year, you never want to lose at home. And going out with my parents in the tunnel of pride and things of that nature. And we just had the little blip against Michigan State a couple of week prior. But my whole goal was like “I’m not going to lose my last game in Ohio Stadium. And I know we haven’t been having a good record against Michigan but I don’t want to lose to Michigan.” So we had guys; Antoine Winfield, Damon Moore, Joe Germaine, Joe Montgomery, guys just tearing up with each other because this was our last game and it happened to be the Michigan game.
So we went out there and knew we could compete. Of course I think the year prior—Charles Woodson was a great athlete. He changed the game from ’95 until he left and they had ‘Dre Weathers and a couple other corners and we felt like we could take advantage of them but it was just that game to say, you know what, this is a rivalry, Coop’s record hasn’t been that good, my record hasn’t been that good. I wanted to go out as a winner. And being able to score was a great feeling for me. It was a cover four, too. Ray went in, it was over Ray and ‘Dre Weathers Ray tells me he turned around looked up and see me caught it and he was sick. (Ray laughs) There’s nothing like winning your last game against Michigan at home and I know we wasn’t that successful against them but they always say you’re as good as your last game and I thought against Michigan we finally … the senior class came up and we were successful.
LL: Questions for both of you guys. We all know that Charles Woodson is still with the Packers, still doing a great job. But where is David Boston these days?
DM: I think Dave is somewhere in Florida. I haven’t talked to Dave in four or five years. It’s sad and unfortunate but I thought Dave would be in the league for 13-14 years like a Joey Galloway. But the NFL game is not for everyone. It comes with a lot of responsibilities and wherever he’s at I just wish him the best. But Dave and I were not in contact with one another.
MR: The last time I talked to Dave, was in ’99 when I was playing for Oakland and we played against the Cardinals and it was funny, we were walking up to the locker room for halftime and he asked me—it really surprised me—he said, “How’re you doing, are you going to make the team?” And I said, “Yeah.” And I could tell we were in the same struggle as far as the NFL. I mean he’s a first round pick and I was a free agent but I could tell there was admiration, knowing that we were not in college anymore and we’re in a different world and whatever happened in college, let it stay there. He said, “Man, I’m rooting for you. I always had respect for you.” And I remember right after that ’97 game. I went to Dee Miller’s house and I called him and I said, “I’m coming over.” And he said “I don’t know if that’s such a good idea because Dave is over here.” He said,” Are ya’ll going to be straight?” (Miller laughs) And I said, “Yeah, we all going to be alright.” So I came over and Dave and I actually hung out.
I mean, Dee and I would always hook up right after that game, like that next week. But as far as Boston is concerned, I haven’t talked to him. I wish that brother all the best of luck and if there’s anything I can do to help him. I’m really trying to work my way up this coaching latter and just reaching out to him.
His name, his presence brought out the best in me, just the same way Dee Miller’s name did the same for me, the same way Charles Woodson did for them. To say you competed with them and played against them is an honor so. Dave, Dee and I both wish him the best and I would love to talk to him.
LL: That’s good to hear. Last question for both of you guys: What do you do each year for the game? Do you get together and watch it? Or Marcus are you ducking him now that Michigan seems to be on the losing end every time?
MR: You know Jim, the funny thing, Dee Miller and I talk so much about the rivalry. We talk about week to week what Ohio State looks like, what Michigan looks like, what problems we think are there, where areas of improvement are needed.
So I’ve never watched an Ohio State game with Dee. I just moved back to Columbus after being in Michigan for a couple of years but I can’t watch Buckeye games with Buckeyes. I just can’t do it. I love Dee to death but it’s something about that whole O-H-I-O when they score (Miller laughs). All that pageantry just makes me sick to my stomach (Ray laughs). Because the last time I watched an Ohio State game with Buckeyes it was at Miami for the Championship game. And it’s bad Jim because you can’t even root with a Buckeye fan without them saying Michigan sucks. So it’s like “Hey, I’m rooting for you now and now you tell me that my team is no good?”
So I have no interest in watching those games with Buckeye fans. I’m just being honest but I usually watch the game by myself….first I thought I was jinxing Michigan because every time I went to the Ohio State-Michigan game, they lost. Then the only game I didn’t go was in 2006 and I felt like maybe if I didn’t go then we’ll win because I didn’t go in ’03, the 100th game, and we won. It’s sad it’s the only game we’ve won in this decade but I can’t watch it. I just watch it with my family and I sit there and when we lose I can shut my door, shut my phone off and go to sleep and be angry in peace.
LL: Yeah, well I think a lot of Michigan fans think it’s them right now but Dee, what do you have planned for the game?
DM: I’ll probably get together … I know Matt Finkes has an event going on at a location on Bethel Road and I think it’s supposed to be the guys like Mike Wiley, Craig Krenzel, Quinn Pitcock and we’ll probably just get together and watch the game and hopefully get ready to salute a victory. So I always get with a lot of guys that I played with and root on the Buckeyes.
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Safety Marcus Ray teamed with Charles Woodson for the 1997 AP national title. He is currently the defensive backs coach for Ohio Dominican (NAIA).
A star receiver for the Buckeyes from 1995-98, Dee Miller now works in insurance for State Farm.
Got a question or comment? E-mail him here
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